Treasure In Search Of The Golden Horse

bruce

IP: 172.129.34.49

Apr 18, 08 - 11:46 PM

Pig goes "oink" theory

I combined parts of the rabbit card, the river chapter, and the fish chapter. My interpretation of the rabbit card was that one must apply something to something. As the card says (Look further and apply the master scheme). Now to the RIVER chapter. One of the 4 words northwest of the paddle-wheeler NATCHEZ is justice. Crossing the st out of justice gives you juice. Combine that with the strange orange color of the river and you have orange juice. Now going to the FISH chapter. The red dissipating color behind the chef represented heat to me. The chapter also has small waves. I get microwave from this combination."(heat and waves)", or very small waves could be construed as microwaves. Now going to the map on page 40. Notice the water mark in the upper right corner. A giveaway as to a coded sheet of paper with a secret message. Was it treated with some kind of invisible ink?. Now the river chapter has a pig in it. Now a pig goes "oink","oink". The last three letters of oink are ink. Invisible ink.(you can't see the oink). Now you have apply, orange juice and microwave. So I applied orange juice to the map and heated it in my microwave. No secret message was found. Has anyone else tried this? just curious. seeking solution

JCG

IP: 66.235.28.9

Apr 19th, 2008 - 2:32 PM

Re: Pig goes "oink" theory

Wild! I did a lot of strange things, but I have to tell you, your experiment is way out there. Very creative, I give you points for effort.

The solution I came up with on the rabbit's card is quite straight forward and would more than convince the most doubting of Thomases. Unfortunately, applying the master scheme within requires a great deal more effort in ways that are not intuitively obvious.

Ixnei

IP: 71.193.177.124

Jun 29th, 2008 - 6:44 AM

Re: Pig goes "oink" theory

Unfortunately, I believe the "scheme" merely consisted of:
1. The map is the key (in more ways than one)
2. The way to move forwards is (sometimes) to go back

I'm sure the Nemo solution to the book rabbit card is correct.

Could Dr. K have encrypted a second solution to the same card? Perhaps, but that would be quite tricky. Certainly applying a different key or reordering the key/transposition process would provide the necessary diffusion.

I'm really interested more in the movie card, as nothing has been done on the movie at all. I had a logbook where I wrote down everything "odd" I noticed, and there seemed to be 3 different color "themes" going on - blue/green, red, and yellow (page colors, bracelets, frames around images, kite spools, etc). FWIW, stuff like the 5 stuffed animals in her bedroom, 'Correct Me Not' mirror image magnet (declination? 14 degrees?), 'I count none but sunny hours' sundial, ETAONRISHD (???), OZ, Fort George G Meade (Eschelon anyone?), Dad's wedding band (changes hands), Moon phases, 13 kites/13 years, Horsethief Meadows, etc. The movie seemed to have a lot more noise than the book, and difficult if not useless interpretations to make (colors, importance). The card was simpler as well, without the decipher/unalter/interpret/translate mumbo-jumbo. Couldn't quite get that final green/red letter cypher either in the credits (ARGOSCN...)

JCG

IP: 66.235.28.9

Jun 30th, 2008 - 1:08 AM

Re: Pig goes "oink" theory

I would like to hear why you are so certain that the NEMO solution to the card is correct. Your thoughts on the flaws to the rest of the solution are consistent with my own, which makes me think that you have spent quite a lot of time with the puzzle.

I am trying to find someone out there who seems to be a logical thinker like myself.....someone who might be interested in working jointly to solve the puzzle the way it was meant to be.

I can assure you that you would be convinced quite quickly, without hesitation that the solution to the rabbit's card is very important, and that I have come up with the solution as intended by Dr. Crypton....far from the convoluted lies shown in the NEMO solution.

I offer you one piece of evidence to whet your appetite. You mention, "....only two short words of ancient Rome..." Ancient Rome was spoken in Latin, but of course the numbers were Roman Numerals, or a series of I's V's M's and X's. The meaning for all this comes from taking the sentence verbatim for what Amanda did ("...wrote just two short words and left the rest behind"). If you start from this particular sentence and work backwards in the book you will find that the last two words Amanda wrote down were "is" and "code". They are found in italics. Now apply the directions given above by writing them down and leaving the rest behind and you have, "is code the rest"

It might be easy to discard this as a meaningless clue if you didn't take it in the context of the tongue of ancient Rome and realize that "is" could really be referring to "I's" or Roman Numerals. This will immediately lead you back to the Tarot card which is of utmost importance in solving the puzzle, as you will know this from the solution to the Rabbit's card.

Furthermore, the DM for JS, I believe you will be convinced is an important part of the solution, though without the complete solution it will be somewhat difficult to prove this to you. It does however align with the clue, "is code the rest".

Would like to hear your thoughts on any of this. Also, what part of the country are you in?

Ixnei

IP: 71.193.177.124

Jun 30th, 2008 - 5:34 AM

Re: Pig goes "oink" theory

Hey, I also noticed you're one of the few on here that really wants to get into the nitty gritty codebreaking aspects of this puzzle. I keep an open mind, but keep myself grounded in the fact that there must be some sort of logical deduction (with some inference) involved.

See my post on the movie version rabbit card solution for why I think Nemo's result is "a" solution (probably the correct one as well, given both cards give the same solution from valid word inputs).

There may in fact be more than 1 readable solution for each card. It would be quite an achievement to have each of these cards produce more than 1 legible solution - talk about the master of master puzzle writers! I, however, don't give the Dr. K that much credit anymore - certainly not like I used to, back in the days when I read his puzzle articles in Science Digest.

It's clear to me now that little cohesion exists within this puzzle - just look at a good chunk of the cyphers that result in useless information like "Viewer be not afraid", "Ignore state shapes", "Dr C was here". What little cohesion is purported to exist by Nemo et al is very weak to me, and more a collection of discontinuity. I would like to crack the additional cyphers like the Greek, Egyptian, Tarot Card, video credits green/red letters - but I have a feeling they will just be more of the same "Sorry, this is just more useless drivel, and a nice slap in the face for all your hard work!"

Not to get down on Kiva (I think I remember this person from the Merlin Mystery as well), but this story is really, really bad. I mean, to have so many different chapters and general discontinuity, it seems that the story was written in after the fact, to sync up with the *necessary framework* of chapter title names. But perhaps that was just more 'white noise' with which to obfuscate.

I had some email contact with Dr K. back in mid 90's, where he basically stated he could not release the solution due to legal/contractual obligations, but he hinted at the fact that a solution of sorts had been published by Nemo (but he would not validate nor refute it). This spineless evasion by Paul pretty much killed my persuit of this puzzle for quite some time.

FWIW, I'm located near Mt Hood, and I'm familiar with Timberline lodge. As an aside, I just found out that they apparently renamed route 666 near the 4 corners area, to something else (491?). Anyone ever able to confirm/deny Paul getting a speeding ticket in the 4 corners area?!... It would be interesting to try and contact the folks in the video credits, and get their cut on what may/may not be clues, general story as to who was "in the know", etc...

JCG

IP: 66.235.28.9

Jun 30th, 2008 - 8:28 AM

Re: Pig goes "oink" theory

Once you are able to accept that Roman Numerals or I's are a big part of the code, you will start to see how many of the pieces are connected.....and perhaps start to believe that, although the solution is impossibly difficult to resolve on one's own, it does have a logical sequence of clues, more like other good puzzles you have encountered.

For instance, the Roman Numerals are encountered on the Tarot, leading to the clue about DM for JS, a very important substitution cypher. Now take a look at the license plate on the Mustang. Deciphered this reads "NOT THE XVI", another reference to the 'tongue of ancient Rome'.

Most other clues that I have come across in the puzzle always have a 'double entendre', which would be consistent with your reference to a good puzzle designed such that one clue tends to confirm another, in this case, the clue confirms itself by having more than one meaning that still somehow relates to the puzzle. For instance, there is a reference to "The map is the key in more ways than one", and, "...It was a card of many meanings...".

If you decide you are interested in pursuing this puzzle as a joint effort I will suggest that we arrange to meet at some point. I find it convenient that you are in the Mount Hood area, as I am not too far from Seattle. In fact I will be taking a road trip to Reno in a few weeks that will lead me past your area.

What say you?

Ixnei

IP: 71.193.177.124

Jul 1st, 2008 - 4:59 PM

Re: Pig goes "oink" theory

Double entendre indeed! At one time I believed that the "RED FISH" chinese characters (4 symbols) were part of the rabbit card.

Translated literally, the 4 together basically meant "RED FISH" in Chinese. However, one might leave the 2nd unaltered as "I", interpret the 3rd as "SCORPION" (or some such - at one point I actually had "LIZARD" on the card - izzard indeed...), and translate the 4th at "NO" from Chinese. Seemed very strange to me how closely it seemed to mirror the rabbit card puzzle, yet the very obvious "RED FISH" translation...

I like your Roman Numeral interpretation - certainly a much more valid reasoning path than "Impish Fetish" (or whatever it was Nemo got from the "He did it himself"), particularly given the Roman Numeral clues in the story (tarot, license, and perhaps page/chapter #'s).

Let's see how far we can get on this forum - don't be afraid to share info. I have no desire nor need to claim any prize, if there is still one to be had (Big Brothers and Sisters?). I thought it was someone else on here that claimed they had the solution, yet wouldn't share it as they didn't want someone stealing their golden fish sticks!!!

Ixnei

IP: 71.193.177.124

Jul 10th, 2008 - 3:30 AM

Re: Pig goes "oink" theory

You know,

it just dawned on me
who you might be.

If indeed it is you, Jim, then I now can understand your reluctance to release any clues here. Especially given the way the "spooks" have tried to ride your wave at Langley. What made me giggle, is that your wiki reference makes no mention of the infamous TISOTGH post of yours.

So, if you want to contact me - I am as named here, on Comcast. Email me, and we can chat. I'm game to continue working on this together.

Also, if you are who I think you are, why don't you simply write search code for the rabbit card using a Trie'd dictionary, and show that many 1/2/6/7 word inputs (or 2/4/5) produce readable 15/16 letter output with the key "OAL"? (LOL! "MAP" reversed and shifted). I know this might be a waste of time - but producing a list of 10-100+ word input combinations that produce readable card output would certainly place significant doubt on the "rt24" solutions, at least in my mind.

I failed miserably with the consonant/vowel analysis (vowel rates only dropped about 2-10% depending on card letter position, with pretty much all but one position >25%), but may go the above route. I haven't done much with pattern matching, so don't have a good way yet to look for legal/illegal patterns ("AAA"), but a trie should make this fast and simple. Just have to dig out the old trusty Rivest MIT algorithms bible (I think the code credits actually belong to Donald Knuth). It seems looking at only 2 words (6/7 letter) on the book card, you could eliminate many combos (given that the first 5 letters and last 6 letters in the output shuffle are contiguous). Looking at the book card again, it seems very poorly designed from a cryptographic shuffle standpoint - the 3 letters from the 1/2 letter words are separated by only 1 other letter...

JCG

IP: 66.235.28.9

Aug 18th, 2008 - 3:11 PM

Re: Pig goes "oink" theory

Not the Jim you're thinking of. Sounds like the both of you are cryptographers, many levels above me in terms of code-cracking ability.

I think the doctor leveled the playing field in this contest just to guarantee that professionals would not have the edge in solving the puzzle.

Since I'm not a cryptographer I can't say for certain how he did this, but I do know that the simple substitution and reverse alphabet ciphers are way below your pay grade.

Links within the puzzle between the cipher solutions and other mini-puzzles seem to not require cryptographic skills. Instead, they are simple 'in your face' solutions that require you to look at things in 'new and different ways'.

Still would like to consider a joint effort......

	Treasure In Search Of The Golden Horse For those who participated in the puzzle :In Search of the Golden Horse Treasure" by Dr. Crypton Posts made here not specifically pertaining to Treasure will be deleted!
Search For Similar Forums · Return to Website

Author	Comment
bruce IP: 172.129.34.49 Apr 18, 08 - 11:46 PM	Pig goes "oink" theory I combined parts of the rabbit card, the river chapter, and the fish chapter. My interpretation of the rabbit card was that one must apply something to something. As the card says (Look further and apply the master scheme). Now to the RIVER chapter. One of the 4 words northwest of the paddle-wheeler NATCHEZ is justice. Crossing the st out of justice gives you juice. Combine that with the strange orange color of the river and you have orange juice. Now going to the FISH chapter. The red dissipating color behind the chef represented heat to me. The chapter also has small waves. I get microwave from this combination."(heat and waves)", or very small waves could be construed as microwaves. Now going to the map on page 40. Notice the water mark in the upper right corner. A giveaway as to a coded sheet of paper with a secret message. Was it treated with some kind of invisible ink?. Now the river chapter has a pig in it. Now a pig goes "oink","oink". The last three letters of oink are ink. Invisible ink.(you can't see the oink). Now you have apply, orange juice and microwave. So I applied orange juice to the map and heated it in my microwave. No secret message was found. Has anyone else tried this? just curious. seeking solution
JCG IP: 66.235.28.9 Apr 19th, 2008 - 2:32 PM	Re: Pig goes "oink" theory Wild! I did a lot of strange things, but I have to tell you, your experiment is way out there. Very creative, I give you points for effort. The solution I came up with on the rabbit's card is quite straight forward and would more than convince the most doubting of Thomases. Unfortunately, applying the master scheme within requires a great deal more effort in ways that are not intuitively obvious. Email: jer@auctionhotspot.net
Ixnei IP: 71.193.177.124 Jun 29th, 2008 - 6:44 AM	Re: Pig goes "oink" theory Unfortunately, I believe the "scheme" merely consisted of: 1. The map is the key (in more ways than one) 2. The way to move forwards is (sometimes) to go back I'm sure the Nemo solution to the book rabbit card is correct. Could Dr. K have encrypted a second solution to the same card? Perhaps, but that would be quite tricky. Certainly applying a different key or reordering the key/transposition process would provide the necessary diffusion. I'm really interested more in the movie card, as nothing has been done on the movie at all. I had a logbook where I wrote down everything "odd" I noticed, and there seemed to be 3 different color "themes" going on - blue/green, red, and yellow (page colors, bracelets, frames around images, kite spools, etc). FWIW, stuff like the 5 stuffed animals in her bedroom, 'Correct Me Not' mirror image magnet (declination? 14 degrees?), 'I count none but sunny hours' sundial, ETAONRISHD (???), OZ, Fort George G Meade (Eschelon anyone?), Dad's wedding band (changes hands), Moon phases, 13 kites/13 years, Horsethief Meadows, etc. The movie seemed to have a lot more noise than the book, and difficult if not useless interpretations to make (colors, importance). The card was simpler as well, without the decipher/unalter/interpret/translate mumbo-jumbo. Couldn't quite get that final green/red letter cypher either in the credits (ARGOSCN...) Email: ixnei@ixnei.ixnei
JCG IP: 66.235.28.9 Jun 30th, 2008 - 1:08 AM	Re: Pig goes "oink" theory I would like to hear why you are so certain that the NEMO solution to the card is correct. Your thoughts on the flaws to the rest of the solution are consistent with my own, which makes me think that you have spent quite a lot of time with the puzzle. I am trying to find someone out there who seems to be a logical thinker like myself.....someone who might be interested in working jointly to solve the puzzle the way it was meant to be. I can assure you that you would be convinced quite quickly, without hesitation that the solution to the rabbit's card is very important, and that I have come up with the solution as intended by Dr. Crypton....far from the convoluted lies shown in the NEMO solution. I offer you one piece of evidence to whet your appetite. You mention, "....only two short words of ancient Rome..." Ancient Rome was spoken in Latin, but of course the numbers were Roman Numerals, or a series of I's V's M's and X's. The meaning for all this comes from taking the sentence verbatim for what Amanda did ("...wrote just two short words and left the rest behind"). If you start from this particular sentence and work backwards in the book you will find that the last two words Amanda wrote down were "is" and "code". They are found in italics. Now apply the directions given above by writing them down and leaving the rest behind and you have, "is code the rest" It might be easy to discard this as a meaningless clue if you didn't take it in the context of the tongue of ancient Rome and realize that "is" could really be referring to "I's" or Roman Numerals. This will immediately lead you back to the Tarot card which is of utmost importance in solving the puzzle, as you will know this from the solution to the Rabbit's card. Furthermore, the DM for JS, I believe you will be convinced is an important part of the solution, though without the complete solution it will be somewhat difficult to prove this to you. It does however align with the clue, "is code the rest". Would like to hear your thoughts on any of this. Also, what part of the country are you in? Email: jer@auctionhotspot.net
Ixnei IP: 71.193.177.124 Jun 30th, 2008 - 5:34 AM	Re: Pig goes "oink" theory Hey, I also noticed you're one of the few on here that really wants to get into the nitty gritty codebreaking aspects of this puzzle. I keep an open mind, but keep myself grounded in the fact that there must be some sort of logical deduction (with some inference) involved. See my post on the movie version rabbit card solution for why I think Nemo's result is "a" solution (probably the correct one as well, given both cards give the same solution from valid word inputs). There may in fact be more than 1 readable solution for each card. It would be quite an achievement to have each of these cards produce more than 1 legible solution - talk about the master of master puzzle writers! I, however, don't give the Dr. K that much credit anymore - certainly not like I used to, back in the days when I read his puzzle articles in Science Digest. It's clear to me now that little cohesion exists within this puzzle - just look at a good chunk of the cyphers that result in useless information like "Viewer be not afraid", "Ignore state shapes", "Dr C was here". What little cohesion is purported to exist by Nemo et al is very weak to me, and more a collection of discontinuity. I would like to crack the additional cyphers like the Greek, Egyptian, Tarot Card, video credits green/red letters - but I have a feeling they will just be more of the same "Sorry, this is just more useless drivel, and a nice slap in the face for all your hard work!" Not to get down on Kiva (I think I remember this person from the Merlin Mystery as well), but this story is really, really bad. I mean, to have so many different chapters and general discontinuity, it seems that the story was written in after the fact, to sync up with the necessary framework of chapter title names. But perhaps that was just more 'white noise' with which to obfuscate. I had some email contact with Dr K. back in mid 90's, where he basically stated he could not release the solution due to legal/contractual obligations, but he hinted at the fact that a solution of sorts had been published by Nemo (but he would not validate nor refute it). This spineless evasion by Paul pretty much killed my persuit of this puzzle for quite some time. FWIW, I'm located near Mt Hood, and I'm familiar with Timberline lodge. As an aside, I just found out that they apparently renamed route 666 near the 4 corners area, to something else (491?). Anyone ever able to confirm/deny Paul getting a speeding ticket in the 4 corners area?!... It would be interesting to try and contact the folks in the video credits, and get their cut on what may/may not be clues, general story as to who was "in the know", etc... Email: ixnei@ixnei.ixnei
JCG IP: 66.235.28.9 Jun 30th, 2008 - 8:28 AM	Re: Pig goes "oink" theory Once you are able to accept that Roman Numerals or I's are a big part of the code, you will start to see how many of the pieces are connected.....and perhaps start to believe that, although the solution is impossibly difficult to resolve on one's own, it does have a logical sequence of clues, more like other good puzzles you have encountered. For instance, the Roman Numerals are encountered on the Tarot, leading to the clue about DM for JS, a very important substitution cypher. Now take a look at the license plate on the Mustang. Deciphered this reads "NOT THE XVI", another reference to the 'tongue of ancient Rome'. Most other clues that I have come across in the puzzle always have a 'double entendre', which would be consistent with your reference to a good puzzle designed such that one clue tends to confirm another, in this case, the clue confirms itself by having more than one meaning that still somehow relates to the puzzle. For instance, there is a reference to "The map is the key in more ways than one", and, "...It was a card of many meanings...". If you decide you are interested in pursuing this puzzle as a joint effort I will suggest that we arrange to meet at some point. I find it convenient that you are in the Mount Hood area, as I am not too far from Seattle. In fact I will be taking a road trip to Reno in a few weeks that will lead me past your area. What say you? Email: jer@auctionhotspot.net
Ixnei IP: 71.193.177.124 Jul 1st, 2008 - 4:59 PM	Re: Pig goes "oink" theory Double entendre indeed! At one time I believed that the "RED FISH" chinese characters (4 symbols) were part of the rabbit card. Translated literally, the 4 together basically meant "RED FISH" in Chinese. However, one might leave the 2nd unaltered as "I", interpret the 3rd as "SCORPION" (or some such - at one point I actually had "LIZARD" on the card - izzard indeed...), and translate the 4th at "NO" from Chinese. Seemed very strange to me how closely it seemed to mirror the rabbit card puzzle, yet the very obvious "RED FISH" translation... I like your Roman Numeral interpretation - certainly a much more valid reasoning path than "Impish Fetish" (or whatever it was Nemo got from the "He did it himself"), particularly given the Roman Numeral clues in the story (tarot, license, and perhaps page/chapter #'s). Let's see how far we can get on this forum - don't be afraid to share info. I have no desire nor need to claim any prize, if there is still one to be had (Big Brothers and Sisters?). I thought it was someone else on here that claimed they had the solution, yet wouldn't share it as they didn't want someone stealing their golden fish sticks!!! Email: ixnei@ixnei.ixnei
Ixnei IP: 71.193.177.124 Jul 10th, 2008 - 3:30 AM	Re: Pig goes "oink" theory You know, it just dawned on me who you might be. If indeed it is you, Jim, then I now can understand your reluctance to release any clues here. Especially given the way the "spooks" have tried to ride your wave at Langley. What made me giggle, is that your wiki reference makes no mention of the infamous TISOTGH post of yours. So, if you want to contact me - I am as named here, on Comcast. Email me, and we can chat. I'm game to continue working on this together. Also, if you are who I think you are, why don't you simply write search code for the rabbit card using a Trie'd dictionary, and show that many 1/2/6/7 word inputs (or 2/4/5) produce readable 15/16 letter output with the key "OAL"? (LOL! "MAP" reversed and shifted). I know this might be a waste of time - but producing a list of 10-100+ word input combinations that produce readable card output would certainly place significant doubt on the "rt24" solutions, at least in my mind. I failed miserably with the consonant/vowel analysis (vowel rates only dropped about 2-10% depending on card letter position, with pretty much all but one position >25%), but may go the above route. I haven't done much with pattern matching, so don't have a good way yet to look for legal/illegal patterns ("AAA"), but a trie should make this fast and simple. Just have to dig out the old trusty Rivest MIT algorithms bible (I think the code credits actually belong to Donald Knuth). It seems looking at only 2 words (6/7 letter) on the book card, you could eliminate many combos (given that the first 5 letters and last 6 letters in the output shuffle are contiguous). Looking at the book card again, it seems very poorly designed from a cryptographic shuffle standpoint - the 3 letters from the 1/2 letter words are separated by only 1 other letter... Email: ixnei@ixnei.ixnei
JCG IP: 66.235.28.9 Aug 18th, 2008 - 3:11 PM	Re: Pig goes "oink" theory Not the Jim you're thinking of. Sounds like the both of you are cryptographers, many levels above me in terms of code-cracking ability. I think the doctor leveled the playing field in this contest just to guarantee that professionals would not have the edge in solving the puzzle. Since I'm not a cryptographer I can't say for certain how he did this, but I do know that the simple substitution and reverse alphabet ciphers are way below your pay grade. Links within the puzzle between the cipher solutions and other mini-puzzles seem to not require cryptographic skills. Instead, they are simple 'in your face' solutions that require you to look at things in 'new and different ways'. Still would like to consider a joint effort...... Email: jer@auctionhotspot.net