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Just a Fool

Jul 11, 07 - 8:10 PM

Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary?

Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? I've been seeing this statement being thrown around a lot on the web lately and I was just wondering if anybody could explain this reasoning to me. I thought Wiccans purported to be pro-environment and pro-gay and pro-woman and pro building a new world on the ashes of the old patriarchy. This sounds revolutionary to me.
???

The link to the paper "Why Wicca is Counter Revolutionary" is broken, by the way

Reality Junkie

Jul 11th, 2007 - 9:52 PM

Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary?

Hell yes!
Wicca is counter revolutionary! Anyone can say they’re for peace and equality and environmental justice. It’s more useful to look at their actions or rather, their inaction.

Don’t believe the hype! Look at what Wiccans ACTUALLY do, which is jack ****.

Why don't they ever back up their bull**** with action? Because these dim wits can only think at the level of a 6 yr old. They’re kidding themselves if they think they can 'visualize a new paradigm' or whatever mumbo jumbo they’re spewing this week.

Revolution takes hard work and clear thinking and you don’t get any of that from Wiccans. They stuff their brains with too much fantasy to be able to think clearly and they do absolutely nothing to help progressive causes. They actually show up and start idiotic arguments over nothing and disrupt progressive events. They are huge obstacles for people on the left who are trying to make real changes in the real world using real methods.

If Wicca were a real religion, it would be a REAL cataylist for social change the way the Black Baptist Church was for the civil rights movement. Wicca is a bull**** escape that does nothing, changes nothing and is worth nothing.

Why are we even wasting time discussing this?

Joe

Jul 13th, 2007 - 4:14 PM

Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? Is the Pope a Nazi?

Revolution doesn’t come from re-writing the past, it comes from reshaping the future. To me the entire concept of Goddess spirituality is reactionary, counter-revolutionary and very right wing. I don't see a lot of difference from avoiding your obligation to your fellow human beings by escaping into Christianity or escaping into goddess religion.

I’m an agnostic, I consider the existence of BOTH God and the Goddess to be no more probable than the Tooth Fairy's existence. (I don’t believe in unicorns of government cover ups of visits from extra-terrestrials either.) This has become a major issue when trying to work with fellow secular humanists on progressive issues. The groups I’m committed to are constantly distracted by the non-issue of "spirituality." We waste so much time and energy dealing with Wiccans and other Neo-pagans who insist that religious tolerance demands that no one ever criticize or questions their "sacred beliefs." It’s a strange form of "tolerance" that requires the majority of the planet to remain silent in the face of blatant absurdity. I don't think that any belief should be considered so "sacred" that it can't be questioned and analyzed. You're getting into Neo-con territory when you go there.

Wiccans are detrimental to progressive organzations because they tend to stop the free flow of ideas that is necessary to sort out good policies and good ideas on how to achieve a real social change. When Wiccans join an organization, all productive dialogue stops. They try to provoke controversy so they can make the specious claim of religious persecution. Their agenda to portray themselves as a down-trodden religious minority always overshadows the mission of the group.
Without honest dialogue and the free exchange of ideas, social progress is doomed. The extreme beliefs and belligerent behavior of the Wiccans I have come in contact with has made dialogue impossible and has even caused many progressive groups I've been committed to

to disband due to the conflict that Wiccans bring to the group. The Left will not move forward until it abandons notions of reclaiming "ancient spirituality" and focuses on the needs of the oppressed struggling with the social injustice of the present.

No one has ever changed the future by re-writing the past!

That's my opinion.
Thanks for giving me a forum to express it.
I know that NO wiccan ever would.

Joe

Mary, Mary quite contrary

Jul 14th, 2007 - 5:33 PM

Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary?

You all make some strong points. You are correct that it’s not important what a group purports to believe, what’s important is what they actually do to contribute to REAL change. Wiccans are NOT reality based. However, there are a lot of them who are very vocal who can literally shut down your organization if they even think you are not 100% alligned with their views. I would be very cautious about what I say - you never know who's in the coven.

Wiccans have been a constant source of frustration for me. I do a lot of different political work for a lot of different causes and I can tell you that I have only had extremely negative experiences with them. In my experience, they drain everyone of energy and contribute nothing of substance to any political or environmental organization they become involved in - and they are rarely involved with organizations that do a lot of hard work. They are very self absorbed and immature so they tend to be allergic to hard work.

They certainly are well known for their disruption of just about every progressive organization. Idiotic objections about how impure the organization is because it isn’t vegan, or it doesn’t include some obscure politics they think it should are common. Purity is a luxury that the working class and those who are working with the grassroots can't afford.

They are experts at distracting progressive groups with issues that have nothing to do with its mission of the group and it takes time and energy to deal with all their griping and complaining. They aren’t dependable. They’re tight with money (I guess they have a lot of crystals and silly books to buy) and you can’t depend on them to speak coherently for the organizations they claim to support. They might even speak against your organization if they are obsessing about any imagined slight. In terms or PR, they’re not useful to any leftist organization and they can be dangerous because they’re more interested in shocking people than educating them. Let’s face it, they can’t lead, they can’t follow, so they act like big giant babies and try to throw a monkey wrench into the whole process of social change. I don't know what to do about them. If you are working for real change, and any out of the broom closet Wiccans show up -- which thankfully is a rare thing --the one thing you can count on is that it will be difficult to deal with them and you will feel exhausted and defeated when they finally leave. I guess we all have to just wait until they all grow up!

Mary

7th Generation Kind of Dyke

Jul 29th, 2007 - 6:27 PM

Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary?Wiccans are fools who think you can walk forward in reverse

I've had a lot of experience with Wiccans and I don't see how anyone can conclude that they are anything but regressive.

You can’t move forward if your head is in the past.

Believing in belief is bull****. Respecting everybody’s delusions will keep us all powerless. I don’t believe anything. I THINK that what we need to go back to is the analysis and revolutionary spirit of the 60s (not the woo woo psychedelic drug culture the real grassroots activism) We need to return to a mindset before corporations told us what to think, before the assassinations of the Kennedys, Malcolm and Dr. King before the suppression of free speech and thought that came with the Corporate fellatio performed by the Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Poppy Bush Clinton and Jug head administrations.

We don’t need to restore a fantasy past the never happened – we need to restore the MoFo Constitution and the Republic of the people by the people FOR the people and we need to smash the Corporate/Fascist State that King George created! Then we need to go forward.

The progressives in this country can’t move forward if most of us are high on Wicca all the time. Wicca is the SOMA of the people. They wouldn’t sell all that bull**** at Wal-Mart if it posed any real threat to the status quo. Wicca keeps you passive and stupid, just the way the Corporate/Fascist white male heterosexual Christian state likes you.

Those of us who actually get off our privileged asses and try to change things are finding that you can use the master’s tools to take down the master’s house. Audre Lord forgot the most powerful tool in the toolbox – THE MONKEY WRENCH. We need to get out there and find every way possible to **** up the system you can’t do this on a Wiccan high.

You don’t use positive energy and happy thoughts to change society. It takes real blood sweat and tears. It takes real commitment, discipline and the willingness to go to jail and be beaten and possibly killed by police.

Wicca is a deceptive Utopia that is no different from Christianity. It has evolved into an absolutist ideology that doesn’t tolerate diversity. There’s a cult mindset that says you cannot criticize anyone once they identify themselves as a Wiccan and this had lead to a lot of internet censorship. You can’t find any thoughtful criticism of Wicca on the internet and this should make you think. You can’t find any thoughtful criticism of Scientology either and they have a similar cult mentality. Ironically, you can find a lot of criticism of Christianity. We all need to question our assumptions about Wicca and Wiccans and not take what they say at face value just because they appear to be well intentioned white people.

The bottom line is – and the thing all progressive need to come to terms with – is that If you are out in the woods drunk or stoned, pining for an imaginary past where everything was perfect, you are NOT focused on practical strategies for social change. The NeoCons love the Wiccans because they divide the Left and they become useful idiots – they’re just like fundamentalist Christians as far as the NeoCons are concerned. These gullible fools that join the Wiccan cult never even realize that they’ve been tricked by clever marketing and PR to accept a feminized version of Christianity – and they’re just as passive and non-threatening to the Corporate/Fascist state as the Fundamentalist Christians.

There is absolutely nothing radical or revolutionary about Wicca. It doesn’t provide a coherent analysis of the systems that oppress the majority of the people, it makes the people on the top of the pyramid feel good about being part of those oppressive systems and that keeps those oppressive systems in place. You never have to examine your white privilege in Wicca you can just imagine that you’re “relinquished” it by putting on an affected persona. This is pure bull****. You don’t voluntarily “relinquish” white privilege. The people who push the idea that you can just chose not to be privileged are dangerous. They do more damage than Bill O’Reilly or Rush Limbaugh combined.

Wicca serves the same purpose today, that Christianity did over the past couple of centuries – it keeps the ignorant masses in line, it keeps them doped up on a utopia that will never materialize and it keeps them from organizing for REAL change. Wicca divides people because it teaches them only to accept unrealistic, perfect utopian solutions. Solutions that can’t possibly exist are no threat to the existing systems.

There should be a 12 step program to get off of the most destructive drug on the planet today – WICCA.

Chris

Jun 16th, 2008 - 12:46 PM

Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary?

Well Martha this is our lucky day!! A yuck a yuck??? We get to read about a variety of hate here!! Or maybe it's not Martha but Bambi and there is Classical playing on your 5k stereo. It doesn't matter hate is ridiculous either way! And to do it in the name of free speach is sick!! You scream all ya want on-line. If someone spit on your kid and screamed they were some KKK Satan worshipers you'd have them arrested. It's abuse and slander and every hater here is an inbred yokel at heart.

***Legal Note***
I'm not Wiccan. I just get a kick out of bothering haters.
Weeeeeeeell! It's just so nice to see all the haters gathered in one spot! Now stay here and leave the rest of us alone!!

There is a connective knot that seems to bind you all. "I hate stupid people or people that spew stupid or false info." Very well. I have over a hundred fifty IQ I guess that give me the right to hate most people here if not all!!!!

Chris

Jun 17th, 2008 - 3:38 PM

Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary?

Juuuuuuuust posting my form letter retaliation here too for those that just don't get it!!

Ok - this is my last visit here. I only came back because I knew it could open up a little to my exact point after a post, so one more visit was in order. But this is really not anything I want to dwell on for a number of reasons. A major one being that it is a waste of time to dwell on why who hates who, and really lame too. So in a round it off reply to all that would come - This IS a hate site. To say that it is not with welcome usage of stuff like WiKKKa is well just stupid. The KKK is a hater subculture. Period. To me it is not even rational to compare Wicca with the KKK. It is only a cheap ploy to gain superiority and put in a cheap cut down. And the IQ put in - well it should have been obvious and I can't believe I have to explain this again. I'll spell it out. And I'll use proper spelling too so I can't possibly get put down for being too common or stupid. Because you all see the logic in saying there are Wiccans that are stupid, can't spell, are uneducated in their own religion, and so on. . . Basically the idea being that people here have the right to bash an entire religion and people in it, well since everyone here justified themselves to be a hater because they are all sooooo much better and smarter - I was pointing out that if all can use the basis that they are all so much smarter and spell so much better, that gives them more rights, I was saying that following that logic I guess I have more rights than everyone spewing their hate. They want to say how they are so much smarter, I have a higher IQ than they do, so the logic laid down suggests that they would have to now listen to me. But now I am so shocked to see that someone is coming along saying their IQ is a few points higher and that gives them final rights. So shocked to see that. I just would have NEVER guessed that anyone would come along and do that!! But it does serve to make my point even more, doesn't it? Everyone hating here is just trying to prove one up. I am just so thrilled you win. Ya. Now you have more of a right to hate on your logic. Rules set by you. Ya. What a fun game. Still, all with an IQ under 155 have to listen to me, at least give me equal time. Or maybe we should get everyone IQ tested before they have a right to have a religion or perhaps we need to pass all ideals through the smartest yokel we can find?? And to anyone that will not get the inbred yokel hating haters idea idea I'm not even explaining. It already flew high over one head. The head of the one so much smarter than me I should add. In case the point is still not made - NO it does not give you the right to HATE because you're smarter or more well informed. NO you don't have the right to HATE because someone in that subculture ****** you off, even lots of someones. Spewing HATE remarks is not about free speech. NO Hate is not allowed as a good, health outlet to aggression of any kind. And all you'll ever get in return is hate. So decide if it's ok for someone to hate you back and decide if you want to live with that boundless, senseless aggression.
I'll say only one thing more - This is hate, it should not have to be defended against by using wisdom or even with a level head. If someone opens their mouth and says "I hate" then they should expect retaliation to have no bounds, logic or consideration. There is no logic or bounds to hate. In the name of hate people can justify anything, war rape, murder and worse. There have even been implications here that Wiccans should burned as they claim to have been burned many moons ago. I do not care that someone spews false religion origins. It harms no one and is corrected ONLY with rationality and patience. Nothing is corrected with hate and boding ill to another. And the hate does hurt and when you begin it it will hurt you too. It is the oldest double edge sword. So though there may be some shame in looking stupid at a party saying hundreds of Wiccans were burned (false information) there is gigantic amounts of shame in saying that the person talking the false info needs to be burned. If all the energy to create hate sites and blog hate for stupidity was replaced with patience and respect you'd attain your goals you claim to have, ridding of the negative attributes, much more easily. I imagine that there are many here that know the teaching of the greats like Gandhi, MLK and Hitler, being the "well educated" folks you claim to be. Congrats. If you have ever learned about any of these greats Hitler is the only one that can covet your ideas without shame. Hope you're all proud.

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Just a Fool Jul 11, 07 - 8:10 PM	Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? I've been seeing this statement being thrown around a lot on the web lately and I was just wondering if anybody could explain this reasoning to me. I thought Wiccans purported to be pro-environment and pro-gay and pro-woman and pro building a new world on the ashes of the old patriarchy. This sounds revolutionary to me. ??? The link to the paper "Why Wicca is Counter Revolutionary" is broken, by the way
Reality Junkie Jul 11th, 2007 - 9:52 PM	Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? Hell yes! Wicca is counter revolutionary! Anyone can say they’re for peace and equality and environmental justice. It’s more useful to look at their actions or rather, their inaction. Don’t believe the hype! Look at what Wiccans ACTUALLY do, which is jack **. Why don't they ever back up their bull with action? Because these dim wits can only think at the level of a 6 yr old. They’re kidding themselves if they think they can 'visualize a new paradigm' or whatever mumbo jumbo they’re spewing this week. Revolution takes hard work and clear thinking and you don’t get any of that from Wiccans. They stuff their brains with too much fantasy to be able to think clearly and they do absolutely nothing to help progressive causes. They actually show up and start idiotic arguments over nothing and disrupt progressive events. They are huge obstacles for people on the left who are trying to make real changes in the real world using real methods. If Wicca were a real religion, it would be a REAL cataylist for social change the way the Black Baptist Church was for the civil rights movement. Wicca is a bull** escape that does nothing, changes nothing and is worth nothing. Why are we even wasting time discussing this?
Joe Jul 13th, 2007 - 4:14 PM	Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? Is the Pope a Nazi? Revolution doesn’t come from re-writing the past, it comes from reshaping the future. To me the entire concept of Goddess spirituality is reactionary, counter-revolutionary and very right wing. I don't see a lot of difference from avoiding your obligation to your fellow human beings by escaping into Christianity or escaping into goddess religion. I’m an agnostic, I consider the existence of BOTH God and the Goddess to be no more probable than the Tooth Fairy's existence. (I don’t believe in unicorns of government cover ups of visits from extra-terrestrials either.) This has become a major issue when trying to work with fellow secular humanists on progressive issues. The groups I’m committed to are constantly distracted by the non-issue of "spirituality." We waste so much time and energy dealing with Wiccans and other Neo-pagans who insist that religious tolerance demands that no one ever criticize or questions their "sacred beliefs." It’s a strange form of "tolerance" that requires the majority of the planet to remain silent in the face of blatant absurdity. I don't think that any belief should be considered so "sacred" that it can't be questioned and analyzed. You're getting into Neo-con territory when you go there. Wiccans are detrimental to progressive organzations because they tend to stop the free flow of ideas that is necessary to sort out good policies and good ideas on how to achieve a real social change. When Wiccans join an organization, all productive dialogue stops. They try to provoke controversy so they can make the specious claim of religious persecution. Their agenda to portray themselves as a down-trodden religious minority always overshadows the mission of the group. Without honest dialogue and the free exchange of ideas, social progress is doomed. The extreme beliefs and belligerent behavior of the Wiccans I have come in contact with has made dialogue impossible and has even caused many progressive groups I've been committed to to disband due to the conflict that Wiccans bring to the group. The Left will not move forward until it abandons notions of reclaiming "ancient spirituality" and focuses on the needs of the oppressed struggling with the social injustice of the present. No one has ever changed the future by re-writing the past! That's my opinion. Thanks for giving me a forum to express it. I know that NO wiccan ever would. Joe Email: Upholdreason2upholdjustice@juno.com
Mary, Mary quite contrary Jul 14th, 2007 - 5:33 PM	Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? You all make some strong points. You are correct that it’s not important what a group purports to believe, what’s important is what they actually do to contribute to REAL change. Wiccans are NOT reality based. However, there are a lot of them who are very vocal who can literally shut down your organization if they even think you are not 100% alligned with their views. I would be very cautious about what I say - you never know who's in the coven. Wiccans have been a constant source of frustration for me. I do a lot of different political work for a lot of different causes and I can tell you that I have only had extremely negative experiences with them. In my experience, they drain everyone of energy and contribute nothing of substance to any political or environmental organization they become involved in - and they are rarely involved with organizations that do a lot of hard work. They are very self absorbed and immature so they tend to be allergic to hard work. They certainly are well known for their disruption of just about every progressive organization. Idiotic objections about how impure the organization is because it isn’t vegan, or it doesn’t include some obscure politics they think it should are common. Purity is a luxury that the working class and those who are working with the grassroots can't afford. They are experts at distracting progressive groups with issues that have nothing to do with its mission of the group and it takes time and energy to deal with all their griping and complaining. They aren’t dependable. They’re tight with money (I guess they have a lot of crystals and silly books to buy) and you can’t depend on them to speak coherently for the organizations they claim to support. They might even speak against your organization if they are obsessing about any imagined slight. In terms or PR, they’re not useful to any leftist organization and they can be dangerous because they’re more interested in shocking people than educating them. Let’s face it, they can’t lead, they can’t follow, so they act like big giant babies and try to throw a monkey wrench into the whole process of social change. I don't know what to do about them. If you are working for real change, and any out of the broom closet Wiccans show up -- which thankfully is a rare thing --the one thing you can count on is that it will be difficult to deal with them and you will feel exhausted and defeated when they finally leave. I guess we all have to just wait until they all grow up! Mary Email: tastygrlgarden@gmail.com
7th Generation Kind of Dyke Jul 29th, 2007 - 6:27 PM	Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary?Wiccans are fools who think you can walk forward in reverse I've had a lot of experience with Wiccans and I don't see how anyone can conclude that they are anything but regressive. You can’t move forward if your head is in the past. Believing in belief is bull**. Respecting everybody’s delusions will keep us all powerless. I don’t believe anything. I THINK that what we need to go back to is the analysis and revolutionary spirit of the 60s (not the woo woo psychedelic drug culture the real grassroots activism) We need to return to a mindset before corporations told us what to think, before the assassinations of the Kennedys, Malcolm and Dr. King before the suppression of free speech and thought that came with the Corporate fellatio performed by the Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Poppy Bush Clinton and Jug head administrations. We don’t need to restore a fantasy past the never happened – we need to restore the MoFo Constitution and the Republic of the people by the people FOR the people and we need to smash the Corporate/Fascist State that King George created! Then we need to go forward. The progressives in this country can’t move forward if most of us are high on Wicca all the time. Wicca is the SOMA of the people. They wouldn’t sell all that bull at Wal-Mart if it posed any real threat to the status quo. Wicca keeps you passive and stupid, just the way the Corporate/Fascist white male heterosexual Christian state likes you. Those of us who actually get off our privileged asses and try to change things are finding that you can use the master’s tools to take down the master’s house. Audre Lord forgot the most powerful tool in the toolbox – THE MONKEY WRENCH. We need to get out there and find every way possible to up the system you can’t do this on a Wiccan high. You don’t use positive energy and happy thoughts to change society. It takes real blood sweat and tears. It takes real commitment, discipline and the willingness to go to jail and be beaten and possibly killed by police. Wicca is a deceptive Utopia that is no different from Christianity. It has evolved into an absolutist ideology that doesn’t tolerate diversity. There’s a cult mindset that says you cannot criticize anyone once they identify themselves as a Wiccan and this had lead to a lot of internet censorship. You can’t find any thoughtful criticism of Wicca on the internet and this should make you think. You can’t find any thoughtful criticism of Scientology either and they have a similar cult mentality. Ironically, you can find a lot of criticism of Christianity. We all need to question our assumptions about Wicca and Wiccans and not take what they say at face value just because they appear to be well intentioned white people. The bottom line is – and the thing all progressive need to come to terms with – is that If you are out in the woods drunk or stoned, pining for an imaginary past where everything was perfect, you are NOT focused on practical strategies for social change. The NeoCons love the Wiccans because they divide the Left and they become useful idiots – they’re just like fundamentalist Christians as far as the NeoCons are concerned. These gullible fools that join the Wiccan cult never even realize that they’ve been tricked by clever marketing and PR to accept a feminized version of Christianity – and they’re just as passive and non-threatening to the Corporate/Fascist state as the Fundamentalist Christians. There is absolutely nothing radical or revolutionary about Wicca. It doesn’t provide a coherent analysis of the systems that oppress the majority of the people, it makes the people on the top of the pyramid feel good about being part of those oppressive systems and that keeps those oppressive systems in place. You never have to examine your white privilege in Wicca you can just imagine that you’re “relinquished” it by putting on an affected persona. This is pure bull. You don’t voluntarily “relinquish” white privilege. The people who push the idea that you can just chose not to be privileged are dangerous. They do more damage than Bill O’Reilly or Rush Limbaugh combined. Wicca serves the same purpose today, that Christianity did over the past couple of centuries – it keeps the ignorant masses in line, it keeps them doped up on a utopia that will never materialize and it keeps them from organizing for REAL change. Wicca divides people because it teaches them only to accept unrealistic, perfect utopian solutions. Solutions that can’t possibly exist are no threat to the existing systems. There should be a 12 step program to get off of the most destructive drug on the planet today – WICCA. Email:** FukD4P0L1c3@gmail.com
Chris Jun 16th, 2008 - 12:46 PM	Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? Well Martha this is our lucky day!! A yuck a yuck??? We get to read about a variety of hate here!! Or maybe it's not Martha but Bambi and there is Classical playing on your 5k stereo. It doesn't matter hate is ridiculous either way! And to do it in the name of free speach is sick!! You scream all ya want on-line. If someone spit on your kid and screamed they were some KKK Satan worshipers you'd have them arrested. It's abuse and slander and every hater here is an inbred yokel at heart. *Legal Note* I'm not Wiccan. I just get a kick out of bothering haters. Weeeeeeeell! It's just so nice to see all the haters gathered in one spot! Now stay here and leave the rest of us alone!! There is a connective knot that seems to bind you all. "I hate stupid people or people that spew stupid or false info." Very well. I have over a hundred fifty IQ I guess that give me the right to hate most people here if not all!!!!
Chris Jun 17th, 2008 - 3:38 PM	Re: Is Wicca Counter-Revolutionary? Juuuuuuuust posting my form letter retaliation here too for those that just don't get it!! Ok - this is my last visit here. I only came back because I knew it could open up a little to my exact point after a post, so one more visit was in order. But this is really not anything I want to dwell on for a number of reasons. A major one being that it is a waste of time to dwell on why who hates who, and really lame too. So in a round it off reply to all that would come - This IS a hate site. To say that it is not with welcome usage of stuff like WiKKKa is well just stupid. The KKK is a hater subculture. Period. To me it is not even rational to compare Wicca with the KKK. It is only a cheap ploy to gain superiority and put in a cheap cut down. And the IQ put in - well it should have been obvious and I can't believe I have to explain this again. I'll spell it out. And I'll use proper spelling too so I can't possibly get put down for being too common or stupid. Because you all see the logic in saying there are Wiccans that are stupid, can't spell, are uneducated in their own religion, and so on. . . Basically the idea being that people here have the right to bash an entire religion and people in it, well since everyone here justified themselves to be a hater because they are all sooooo much better and smarter - I was pointing out that if all can use the basis that they are all so much smarter and spell so much better, that gives them more rights, I was saying that following that logic I guess I have more rights than everyone spewing their hate. They want to say how they are so much smarter, I have a higher IQ than they do, so the logic laid down suggests that they would have to now listen to me. But now I am so shocked to see that someone is coming along saying their IQ is a few points higher and that gives them final rights. So shocked to see that. I just would have NEVER guessed that anyone would come along and do that!! But it does serve to make my point even more, doesn't it? Everyone hating here is just trying to prove one up. I am just so thrilled you win. Ya. Now you have more of a right to hate on your logic. Rules set by you. Ya. What a fun game. Still, all with an IQ under 155 have to listen to me, at least give me equal time. Or maybe we should get everyone IQ tested before they have a right to have a religion or perhaps we need to pass all ideals through the smartest yokel we can find?? And to anyone that will not get the inbred yokel hating haters idea idea I'm not even explaining. It already flew high over one head. The head of the one so much smarter than me I should add. In case the point is still not made - NO it does not give you the right to HATE because you're smarter or more well informed. NO you don't have the right to HATE because someone in that subculture ****** you off, even lots of someones. Spewing HATE remarks is not about free speech. NO Hate is not allowed as a good, health outlet to aggression of any kind. And all you'll ever get in return is hate. So decide if it's ok for someone to hate you back and decide if you want to live with that boundless, senseless aggression. I'll say only one thing more - This is hate, it should not have to be defended against by using wisdom or even with a level head. If someone opens their mouth and says "I hate" then they should expect retaliation to have no bounds, logic or consideration. There is no logic or bounds to hate. In the name of hate people can justify anything, war rape, murder and worse. There have even been implications here that Wiccans should burned as they claim to have been burned many moons ago. I do not care that someone spews false religion origins. It harms no one and is corrected ONLY with rationality and patience. Nothing is corrected with hate and boding ill to another. And the hate does hurt and when you begin it it will hurt you too. It is the oldest double edge sword. So though there may be some shame in looking stupid at a party saying hundreds of Wiccans were burned (false information) there is gigantic amounts of shame in saying that the person talking the false info needs to be burned. If all the energy to create hate sites and blog hate for stupidity was replaced with patience and respect you'd attain your goals you claim to have, ridding of the negative attributes, much more easily. I imagine that there are many here that know the teaching of the greats like Gandhi, MLK and Hitler, being the "well educated" folks you claim to be. Congrats. If you have ever learned about any of these greats Hitler is the only one that can covet your ideas without shame. Hope you're all proud.